Wouldn't Fate be morel like an the episode plot supernatural being. I mean when she directly target sam and dean when they were born regardless of the ship being unsunk or sunk he might have turned bad. But before that she was only doing her job given to her by God.: The Twilight of Your Despair 01:06, May 7, 2012 (UTC)
Lore and Power Edit
Atropos is interesting, technically what christians would deem 'pagan' but in the show, these greek abstract like entitites are seemingly working for God, he gave them their duties 'personally'. This seems to imply that not only have they witnessed his true form, but he may not have created them and before coming to his service they were similar to the horsemen, being natural universal functions, and since in the greek myths they are daughters of a primordial abstract 'nyx' the Night personification, they may have decided to work within his established order whenever God decided to form it, like when heaven was formed or whatever.
Actually i would go as far to say that although nyx may not appear in show, the fates may indeed be like the horsemen and God and even God works within certain 'inevitabilitites' , although i have no doubt that the sidters are far, far weaker, probably on par with the three lesser horsemen, and that blade.. i doubt it could actually kill a fate, perhaps deactivate them temporarily, but angels tend to be very sure of themselves, such as when Castiel believed he could defeat Alastair, if a fate dies, a function of creation dies and im sure God would not like that.
Now as for the actual power level, as much as i think they could be primal, i believe certain primal entitites don't need to be mega powerful, Atrops, I personally think is above a seraph, even the 'naomi' class, at most, just below Gabriel. The next powerful sister I think would be on par with Lucifer and Michael, and the oldest would be stronger than all archangels and without doubt stronger than leviathans and Eve, but still below death and God.
I'm bringing back the Blade as for one, it's very obscure indeed, looked similar to an angel blade and I doubt it could do much to her, aside from castiel's overconfidence with Alastair, there was Dick Roman believing nothing could kill or harm him, there was the idea that a man of letters believing an excorsism and a demon killing knife would kill abaddon, not realising that they had just tried that and failed, and others.
but what do you guys think on this topic??
Giving them jobs personally doesn't mean he created them, although away from that fact, he could have. How can God create an intrinsic mechanism like fate, that are, for the most part, only relevant to humans? He could've been capable of creating Fate but only with some kind of form, but fate itself is just a concept help in minds of created beings, which makes it almost impossible for God to create a concept which are the product of minds. She's weaker than seraphs, which she even recognized, and that she at least has two sisters who can kick the shi* out of seraphs for her. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:24 PM, January 27th 2014
Agreed, except, Micheal was directly following his 'destiny' aswell, but Fate had other ideas for him, like he said to dean 'free will is just an illusion' including for himsel, the deities, even God himself has a fate, not just humans.
That's why I said "for the most part." Yes, fate is relevant to all things except for God. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:52 PM, January 27th 2014
If God was all knowing in the show, would not have forseen Lucifers Rebellion, Gadreel's failure, creation of demons, the apocalypse and everything that's ever transpired? if that is so, it would mean there was no stopping Gadreel's failure, if Lucifer is the root of all evil, then God allowed it to happen, say he was all seeing and knowing, that means he saw it all but was powerless to stop it because he himself is bound by fate and such things would happen regardless of his actions.
Death has stated that God will one day die at his hand, sure he might be lying, but if God denied it he could also be lying, the only thing that makes you doubt something that was spoken by Death, that the writers obviously through out there to dispell any fan beliefs that God is eternal, only your own interpretation of established laws would be the reason to doubt what Death said, death is not above fate as he has been wrong before, the Archangel's believed God 'grand plan' for the biys is what they themselves also believed would happen, but the brothers bypassed it.
Your real world faith blinds you from the different established laws within the series, even Gods own son, Raphael thought God was dead, so theres 2 implications that he can die, sure he wasn't dead but why would the Archangel believe he was? i'm guessing that at somwe point in the show, God will die, as the writers once again destroy the basic laws of the abrahamic faiths they source their lore from.
For myself, I do not believe in god, and thought the Bible, Quaran and all was all fairytales, where I live in the UK, nobody I ever known in the colleges, universities and Jobs ive held have actually believed in such stuff, Im Gaiast myself, I believe the only creator and God is mother earth herself, as she will be in front of us regardless of whether we beleive she is there, with our father the sun, she births us, feeds us and gives us what we need to craft our civilization, the only planet we truley know life exists on, as such she herself must be alive in some form.
I respect your faith but I don't understand why people would worship invisible, mystic higher beings while foresaking the life producing thing we stand on, I believe in science and minor spirituality, the only evidence most faiths have are the holy books they cling to which have been rewritten and interpreted to suit the preferences of the readerm sure the Bible says God created the earth, no proof, I can't see God, sure people can 'feel' god but pagans feel many 'gods' there is no saying who is right, God speaks to one guy, he creates a christian sub faith like mormonism, yet he speaks to another guy who makes a different one, each with thier own laws, living life like the robotic angels of lore despite our free will he apparently blessed us with.
I'm not meaning to seem disrespectful, but as a Gay man, I get it in the ear from these 'preachers' handing out leaflets to go to church, they get ignored, the hate and judgement in their eyes, not sure if your like this, but some poor blind preachers actually believe that by being gay I'm breaking at least 4 commandments, one of which was adultery...why? because for some strange reason, he claims himself above science and claims that sexuality is a choice, i can be 'cured' and all us gays are apparently cheating on our girlfriends to practice a sin of Lucifer.. i never knew he was gay, then I asked what made him Christian, he said he killed a man once, cheated on his wife, stole from his parents and got evited for abuse to his neibours.. which he broke the commandments, and was standing there judging me when, when there was tons of homeless around, so i gave them my charity and a bible and asked them to choose...obvious choice.
Thing is, if in the confines of a fictional show, you wanna believe that your God is eternal, because your book says so, and that there is no way that the writers can just kill him off then that's your problem.. for me, he never existed, so stop trying to make me understand your logic about God, if i get judged while i'm dead then fine, but during life as long as im helping others instead of judging them, God can be my bitch, yes I said it.
I'm not pressing anything on you, man. Believe or don't, that's totally up to you. Either way, I really enjoy talking to you. Fate isn't the personification of inevitability, because the merry band of Free Will avoided their so-called fate. Dean, who didn't serve as the sword of Michael or get mowed on, has proven Michael and Chronos wrong. You shouldn't just take every statement at face value. God is incomprehensible, even to archangels, and we only slightly understand parts of him that he's chosen to reveal to us. I'm not going to even touch on the trustworthiness of Death's claim regarding eternality, where only he will last forever. In his essence, archangels understand God as much as a stag. But, again, God has revealed certain traits of himself to us in principles established by us. Raphael said he was dead because he stopped intervening to such an intensity that he could be looked at as nonexistent. God's omniscience is fenced with a parameter that I won't even go into now. Although, I will say, God is inevitably bound to his own omniscience, in that he can't do anything aside from what he knows he's already going to do, so in that way, he is fated like everything else. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:30 PM, January 30th 2014
Fate may not be the personification of inevitability, but unlike greek myths, she is the youngest sister, so one of the other sisters must hold Atropos real world belief of inevitability, as going from what she mentioned about her sisters being more powerful in every sense of the word, i'm guessing since she is the youngest and makes even seraphs weary, the power gap between the sisters must be huge, like Atropos being fate of humanity, Clotho, as powerful as an archangel, determines the fate of all gods and mystical beings, while perhaps Lachesis is the fate of the universe it's self and likely higher than the horsemen but lower than death, i think theres a big enough power gap between the other horsemen and death.
And what if the writers did kill off God? it's their show, they easily could do it, I could write a season's worth of extra episodes in which God dies, they could also decide that he himself is but a mite compared to even higher being, the fact that your understanding and faith states that God must be all powerful, does not mean in the show it must stay that way, only Abrahamic faiths in RL consider him to be supirior, actually i know many pagans who would declare that Odin, or Zeus are the most powerful, in show there not, but other, more powerful entitites have appeared in the pagan myths, like Uranus- The heavens and such.
They could even make it so Oberon created God, the options are endless, Did you know that Lucifer appeared in Greek myths way before Christianity as a torch holder? that's just one of a great many things the Christian faith stole and adapted, if God really exists, why didit take it so long for the Abrahamic faiths to get off the ground?? 2000 years of christianity, a faith that has spawned War, hate, discrimination and destruction in the name of your God, So it is my hope that God will die in the series, but thank GOD that my country, once strewn with Catholic and Prodestant delusionals, is finally waking up, they are fairytales and one day the world will join the UK... and what will God do? nothing as usual.
So stop assuming with your blind logic that God must be Supreme in the show, but whether it's real life fairytales or in show fairytales, it's still fiction and fiction can be manipulated, we never know what the writers are thinking, I hope they kill God just to shut up the Christian fans.
126.96.36.199 02:39, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
You know, this discussion brings back the memories on reading about theories where Naomi is actually one of the elder sisters of Atropos, and the Fates have finally decided to step in and return order to Heaven. Not only would that be an interesting plot twist, it would also connect Season 8 to Season 6, and link all those seasons together to the Kripke Era and the theme of Free Will vs. Fate/Predestination. That also means deities would have more involvement in the show, and, unlike Raphael going for the tired re-do or re-start a previous plot (in this case, trying to restart the Apocalypse), the Fates would ride-on and completely re-write the destiny of everything into something else that would suit their ideas, and, unlike Metatron, their advent would not be out of nowhere, since they have every reason to hate the derailment of the Apocalypse. But since it makes perfect sense, of course, the writers decided to do something else. FTWinchester (talk) 02:55, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
No character is the personification of inevitability in the show, as far as I can see. Unless you count God's foresight on everything, which dictates the thoughts, ideas, actions of everything that can be known. This would include God's own fate and actions. I think if Oberon created God, it would've been mentioned by now. Ok, if the writers introduced a stag into the series, would you not automatically assume it will be represented identical as it is in real-life? If you're answer is no, you're beyond the scope of help in this area. Yes, the writers can give their own curves to it, but it's essentially the same as to what they're taking it from. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:01 PM, Janaury 30th 2014
Beyond help?? we have never seen or witnessed the other sisters to say that they are or are not above or under God, if death can't reap God, then maybe other things could be so, perhaps the Archangels come from nowhere, they were here from the start and humans descended from the deitites and humanities own beliefs brought 'GOD' into existence and the upper beings perceptions and memoroes became warped to believe certain things are so.
Maybe death created God, and why would it be stated that Oberon did if he has only been mentioned? a microbe's universe is our body, so it's possible that god himself and the universe is merely a cell in a larger being, you can't take your outdated beliefs and refuse any other possible outcome due to your own stubborn views, it's a show, it could turn out any number of elder gods are above god, I'd rather believe there is a council of elder Gods, god only wants everyone to believe he is omnipotent, because he is a dictator, very egotistical, oppressing, I mean if he is all powerful, why worship him? does he even care if humanity does anything at all to him?
But no, for some reason Christians beleve they must live their lives in the path god has chosen with his laws and be robotic despite the free will we have, why would something that powerful care how we live? we are supposedly like bacteria compared to God, so why would he have us live in accordence with his word?? I love how the writers of the show have blatently made out Jesus to be no more than a man, the idea that christian groups are used as little more than minions and tools by the angels due to thier obsession and belief in the good book which has also been called pretty much incorrect, angels are willing to torture and kill people, and where is God?? nowhere, because other than a backbone for the current lore the writers, the way i see it dislike God and want everything he has made and written in the real world to be seen in show as twisted and corrupt like himself.
Sure Metatron said God was fair or whatever, but if Death claims can be incorrect, I'm sure the scribes can be aswell, and where is God? on earth, ignored his sons, diddnt bother resurrecting the one good archangel, setting up events for the apocalypse and then just sitting back?? he sounds like an irresponsible fool, if a scientist creates a microbo in a lab, or petri dish, he is it's God, God could just be a scientist creating moulds in a petri dish and may believe in a God who is also a scientist.
Time to leave fairytales alone ain't it? grow up and accept that no Big powerful enity made the universe or the earth, your creation myth is no different or proposterous than any other, it's just humanity...
188.8.131.52 03:36, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
let's just call it a day, we obviously see things differently dude, but mark my words, the show has proven me correct too many times, God will die andit start a new story arc.