We um, we do know that...[]
... the thing about the blade "being able to kill anything under an archangel/anything Lucifer can kill" was never stated in any episode and is pure conjecture, yes? Also, although this doesn't have to do with my main point, I think that Dean was generalizing when he said that the blade can kill "anything." There's no way that he could know that for sure at this point, but it seems to work on most things up to a certain paygrade so it's easy enough to just say "everything." Ensephylon (talk) 05:49, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
That is a good point. Furthermore, just because Lucifer is responsible for creating the mark doesn't mean that it can kill anything he could kill himself. I mean Samuel Colt created the colt, but he can't kill demons himself. It's wuite possible the blade would be either ineffective against high ranking angels or might be effective on Archangels. And who stated that Lucifer can't kill Raphael or Gabriel with his bare hands? He seemed willing to attack Gabriel unarmed until he saw Gabriel had an angel blade.
Also I do not understand why dean said that the First blade is the only thing that can kill Metatron
Good point, Ensephylon. However, it really does seem to be able to kill anything under Lucifer (demons, reapers and angels and already that's three of the very strong species). Maybe it's because he wants an excuse to use the First Blade rather than an angel blade.... Just saying. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:09 PM, May 14th 2014
relation to other super weapons[]
I'm widly thinking the reason Death was locked up was because he had a hand in making the first blade so very powerful, perhaps non directly and god saw this as betrayal or a threat, as it's killing power is insane, stronger than angel blades in that they can't kill a knight but it can kill not only angels but supposedly metatron perhaps even with the tablet infused powers, as he seemed eager to block it, making it likely the second strongest weapon in creation, seemingly above lucifer himself, who likeky wasn't thinking too good when he was dealing with cain, on the run knowing god could implode him or lock him up, it's relation to the sythe seem possible, and by extension i still think Colt gotmaybe a tiny amount of the blades power to allow it to kill almost anything, therefore i wonder which of the two is more powerful? blade or gun?
also, was angel angel blade ever used on abaddon? i only assume it could not kill her, im sure cain would be aware if an archangel blade could, but im sure he mentioned the only thing that could kill a knight was the blade.
While I could elucidate and dilate upon this, it's easier to just say retecon. It'd be painfully pointless for Death to empower the blade because he owns the scythe that he somehow made, that can almost definitely kill pretty much anything. Both the mechanism of mark and the power of the blade have a lot more to due with Lucifer. Really, how? In what way are you saying that the Colt "got a tiny amount of the blade's power?" I find this implausible, one because the Colt was made a very long time after the blade was created and empowered. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:21 PM, May 26th 2014
So you think colt just of his own accord managed to craft a weapon capeable of killing alomst anything in creation? the mark and first blade were likely no different than the creator of the atmic bomb, he made it, but it's power trumps his and he has no power over it, likely the same with lucifer, not realising the power of what he had created, metatron seemed to imply that only his connection to the angel tablet giving him powers not even at least the lower 2 archangels had, could protect him from the blades wrath, if he bonded long enough, it's easy using basic logic of expiriences in our own world that we can create things that can easily destroy us, not willingly, but we can, until mentioned otherwise as i'm sure will be confirmed in season 10, the first blade can likelly kill lucifer or at least make the user eve style immune to all angel powers, as the first blade does not just harm angels, a slah of it did considerable damage to Gadreel, and dean very quickly overcame abaddon, much quicker than sams powers evolved at.
I'm starting to think the reason lucifer did not call on Cain during the apocalypse was that for one, cain could hide well enough, and for two, cain had become a demon under unique circumstances and lucifer knew that his evolution with the blade likely mutated him, afterall, the souls of purgatory mutated a seraph past an archangel, perhaps the blade had unforseen acceleration, as lucifer unlike his father is not all knowing, his pride and arrogance being his weak point, and so the blade elevated cain well beyond any demon much in the way cas was elevated above any angel except possibly lucifer and michael, although he was immune to angel blades an anti angel sigils that lucifer could not overcome (the sigils on the boys ribs) so i think it's likely that to teach lucifer a lesson, death could well have added some extra spice to the blade, we know he doesn't like him much, and now even without the mark, cain can do all sorts no demon has displayed, perhaps dean will do so also, not like god will do anything, as in supernatural, he doesnt care about christians, demons or humans anymore unless it suits him.
109.153.92.180 09:50, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah..I'm quite confident Samuel Colt didn't at all resort to including the blade in creating the Colt, one because of the enormous time gap between their respective crafting. Because the blade was made in the antediluvian era while the Colt was made in 1835. He forged its bullets out of a falling star using supernatural knowledge. That simple, but, sure, I could be wrong. I totally agree, it's possible for a being to create something that can kill them. However, saying the blade can kill Lucifer is a little bit of a stretch. Lucifer putting a notable and significant amount of effort and time in flecking Cain with the mark that powers a weapon capable of killing him, to me, makes no sense. The blade definitely cannot kill God, Death, or any of the other Horsemen. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:08 AM, May 27th 2014
But if the blade predates even archangel blades, theres a good chance it's stronger, he simply may have thought at the time that cain would never attempt kill use it against him, you forgot his arrogance and pride, if lucifer tried to use his blade on cain i doubt it would work as its expressively made clear that only the first blade has that kind of power, i mean even an amped up archangel level metatron was eager to not take a hit from it, and being gods scribe im sure he would know its full power.
Princepurple (talk) 16:12, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
Also I'm pretty sure that Cain was around likely in the time period of being with colette and samuals own life line, either colt was pretty young, i forget the dates but he could have even been the one that helped cain gain his humanity or colt gained tutalege under cain, remember, it was almost made a scene of colt having the demon killing knife in his posession, and what sort of insane knowledge granted colt the power to craft the colt? the men of letters, the white eyed demons, the oldest spell casters not once displayed the ability to do that or im sure they would have, or as im starting to think perhaps god blessed him with a gun with the power of an angel blade or something.
Princepurple (talk) 16:16, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
I know, his superciliousness is what got him reimprisoned. Anyway. Angel blades would ineffectually do nothing to angels in incorporeal form and am unsure when the blades were created. In exactly what way the Colt has the power to kill anything in creation but five things is seriously fickle. God could've blessed it, yes, but the power from the fallen star could be the sole derivation of the gun's power. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:55 PM, May 27th 2014
Archangels were existing even before Lilith was made. How could the First Blade predate archangel blades? Like I said from my response to another thread, I think you have your timeline muddled (also partly because the new era is confusing). FTWinchester (talk) 01:17, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps they had no need for such weapons until after the first blade was created, angels needed blades for enemies? what enemies could that have been? at that point early on there were likely only a handful of the very first demons, young and not so strong, angels or moreso seraphs and archangels could just smite could they not? the only reason I can see they would have them is for is killing eachother when not in spiritual form, like as lucifer was the first to fall, they decided that incase others do the same thing, they have a means of defense should other angels go rogue? this may be why we have never seen an angel aside from the archangels smite eachother.
Although this begs as to why the archangels would even need blades that were stronger still, unless god forsaw that they would someday cross paths, can a standard angels blade hurt an archangel? seems obsolete to have a blade when 99.9% of your species can't stab you and you only need to click your fingers to vanquish them.
So no my timeline makes sense, when i meant the first blade seems like a colt/knife hybrid, it's not that it is, it's just, it's a bladed weapon that has colt like killing power, so its more a supirior version than an upgrade i guess, but if the first blade was crafted around the time of earths creation, were did the animal come from that its jaw is made of? but yea, I think overall it's quite possible that the first blade predates archangel blades, first blade to be used in agression, unless of course the angels/archangel never actually used thier blades.
Princepurple (talk) 01:40, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
And Imperiex it is possible colt and cain came across eachother, he finished the devils gate in 1861, 2 years later cain slaughtered the knights, so thier timelines and location were very possible to cross, both guys had weapons of enormous power, could it be that colt crated the weapon in hopes it would kill cain? as 2 years earlier, cain could still have been evil, and colt would have loved to kill 'the dealist demon' was had wreaked havok across the ages, whether the colt could, is not the point, a good reason to make it.
Princepurple (talk) 01:55, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
It's extremely hard to pinpoint when specifically angel blades were created. Even I'm having a hard time with this one. Anyway, archangels and seraphs could effortlessly kill any level demon. A standard angel blade is able to injure archangels, seeing as Raphael swiped the one Dean threw at him from the air instead of just having it dink off. The blade was created after the creation of animals, not like instantly after the Earth. Technically, aggression itself, or War, first manifested when the war in Heaven started. But the First Blade was the first object wielded with the intent of fighting. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:57 PM, May 27th 2014
Seraphs can kill any level demon when non demon dean with limited use of the first blade was able to stun metatron who through use of the angel tablet was above a seraph? only makes sense that cain being a demon, thousands of years of power bult from continued use would have done alot more than just stun metatron, by that calculation, a seraph going up against non demon dean with knife would have took more damage than metatron did and given how its allowing dean to first be immune to demon powers, then stun metatron with a hit, leads to the idea that the holder eventually becomes immune to angel powers likely above a seraph, as thats what metatron had, so by that calculation, cain with the mark and blade would likely be immune to a seraph, as deans powers are only gonna grow, if he could stun upper seraph metatron with little expirience, imagine what full on demon one would do, then imagine what having thousands of years expirience by the same speed he became immune to abaddon and gained power to visually hurt metatron, with cain, it stands every reason that cain could be immune to seraphs outright and could smite them.
King of hell crowley was confident enough to stand against the weakened seraph castiel, before changing his mind and vanishing, he also vanished from seraph like naomi, yet cain was able to effortlessly prevent his escape, something no seraph has demonstrated, and can silence him, there is no good in series grounds to believe a seraph could overpower cain besides your wishful thinking logic backed by unfounded proof given the things seraphs could do with crowley compared with cain and given higher than seraph metatron against practically zero power first blade holder dean and still get stunned.
Princepurple (talk) 02:14, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Wielder of the blade and wearer of the mark becomes a fierce aggression god, I admit-but without the mark and the First Blade, a seraph could smite Cain. Remember, literally no amount of demons pose any threat or problem for seraphs; Castiel showed little interest when Crowley sent an army of demons at him in "The Man Who Knew Too Much." You're right, a wearer of the mark with the blade could escalate further in aggression so much that, eventually, he'd kill the seraph. But, the seraph, if they really wanted to win, could just teleport behind him and smite him. You're right again, no seraph has ever hung onto demons from escaping but no seraph have picked up a car, but they can. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:32 PM, May 27th 2014
I think cain transfaring his mark simply allows the user to weild the blade, without the mark, he still killed the demons and likeky kept all of his abilities the mark gave him, him having it so long its effects seem ever lasting, he just can't use the blade. Cain most likely has the white light ability and could smite an army just as easy as a seraph but it's not his style, i think he likes his personal smiting power, and he could likely take alot of angels too, given how much stronger than alastair he seems who even severly wounded easily beat and nearly excorsised a full power angel (cas).
I seriously don't know where your ideals on seraphs origniantes, only 2 have been shown, possibly 3 with naomi, zacheriah may have been as advanced as he was simply because he was a very old seraph, the much younger cas seemed nowhere near his power level, hardly anything about the seraph class has been mentioned or explained let alone thier capeablilities, no seraph has ever faced a higher level demon, seems only right though, if lucifer had created an army to fight for him during the apocalypse and had demons that could easily beat regular angels, hes not stupid enough to not have made some to tackle seraphs too, cain in many ways seems like a counterpart of zacheriah for demons, just think, angel blade supposedly cant harm cain, but the first blade can, yet an angel blade can kill the seraph just as easy as it would a regular angel, the first blade obviously could seeing how metatron feared it.
mark my words cain will return, smite angels and show you that just because lilith is first, does not make her stronger, Eve was capeable of making new monsters stronger than their older bretheren and cains way of becoming a demon was different to any other demon, he killed himself, with the first blade/mark he could likely kill lilth with it granting demon immunity faster than sams powers did, which killed her.
Princepurple (talk) 03:17, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Except Lucifer rebelled before Cain was even damned. So we know war did occur in Heaven, and we know archangel blades could kill archangels. Our puny mortal minds could not comprehend how angels work in Heaven, so we are in no position to claim they have absolutely no need of blades while upstairs. Naomi was killed by her own tool while in Heaven and Metatron severed Castiel's grace with a blade in Heaven. Unless you guys think God decided his archangels needed weapons after and not before the war, then okay. FTWinchester (talk) 03:20, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
The fact that seraphs can melee a ton of demons at once is one of the big reasons I believe they're this powerful. Not all of the forces of Hell simultaneously could stop a seraph. Otherwise, Crowley would've just sent the entire demon world at Castiel ever time he wanted him dead. He sent a huge army of demons after Castiel in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" and Castiel showed little interest. Not on Zachariah's level, no, but no one could stand up to seraph Castiel in season seven besides the Leviathan. Cain might be able to smite angels, but not seraphs. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:21 AM, May 28th 2014
Then I will level with you, they cannot smite eachother, if we witness a seraph attempt to smite the newly demon mark dean, and it fails, we can assume also is as i imagine the marks powers will take long time to were off, notice how with the mark, cain had not killed in a long time, yet it diddn't do anything to him, i think he is too far gone, and i think there are many things that could fill the gap between angels and seraphs, if angel are zero and seraphs are 10, id put again at around 7 to the point where he cant kill seraphs without the first blade, but the can't kill him without it either, since smiting him can't work since only 1 thing can supposedly kill him, the kill power of the colt and first blade is higher than seraph smiting power, as they can kill one supposedly, a seraph i mean.
So although seraph may strength wise be able to face and beat cain, he aint going to be a pushover, the gap between seraph and archangel being 0 seraph, 1000 archangel if not more, leads to believe, if lucifer was so angry and vengeful he would unleash that focus into the creation of something he could hopefully control but also something above any seraph, i think any archangel could be capeable of crafting seraph killing beings and im sure while he was imprisoned, he would have insurence not just against angels but seraphs too.
The slightly higher than seraph class naomi was i think could more easily deal with cain, but like you said, just because a seraph has not been shown to lift a car doesnt mean they can't, but if angels can and alastair was stronger, seems logical that the stronger demons could also, but they have not demonstrated it, cain diddnt just disable crowley and take on all those demons, he diddnt even seem to give any attention to it at, i mean that army that went after cain was likely not the lowest class, as one of them was able to easily put crowley down, only the angel blade saved him, those demons seemed pretty high class, only the best of abaddons forces would be sent to deal with cain, not that it mattered, i think every demon in history aside from white/yellow eyes would die by cains hand, the way the writers seemed to put dread and terror behind cain, not shown behind seraphs like dean 'there all still inside, with HIM' as if genuinly feeling sorry for the army.
when the army was sent after castiel, did the not so easy to show emotion cas actually confront the army? whether with angels too, crowleys demon seemed to be able to tackle the leviathan well, so all this im trying to say is cain may not beat a seraph, but had it been when he still had the blade with him, likely a billion times stronger than dean, if put infront of basic metatron, who was not run of the mill (having his powers despite technically exiled, most wanted) and displaying above angel power, im sure cain would mutilate him, even with the tablet, look at what dean did, im sure cain would do alot more, all that rage, it was scary coming from dean, from cain..even without the mark, its terrifying to think of, so not at all do i think a seraph could easily overpower a seraph, anything they can do, we can bet he may be able to do, heres the lowdown.
1. human dean, only small use of mark and blade, managed to slap metatron so hard he was stunned and visibly shaken. dean already displayed demon power immunity.
2. metatron was above a seraph at that time.
3. cain was an ancient demon, over 10,000 years of kills and rage under his belt, by such equasion, cain would be immune to angels too given month one/ immune to demons, month 3/ immune to angels, month 12, immune to seraphs, or something like that.
4. cain although may still be thrown around by tablet infused metatron, would likely not even twitch to a seraph and would smite angels, and via immunity, stab seraphs.
that's all for now
Princepurple (talk) 17:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
Gabriel[]
If the blade can kill anything Lucifer could, does this mean it could kill Gabriel? (and Raphael, if he was still alive) 24.163.33.159 17:11, October 19, 2014 (UTC)
No. Lucifer cannot kill Gabriel or Raphael, as they are both archangels. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 17:23, October 19, 2014 (UTC)
Amara and the First Blade[]
Could it be possible that Amara can use the First Blade? As she now posses the Mark and should be able to power it. Also do you think she's strong enough to fight off the effects?Noremac2 (talk) 02:43, November 8, 2015 (UTC)
- Stupid question, as the Darkness/Amara is the source of the blade's power, so she wouldn't need the blade for anything. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:11 AM, November 8th 2015
- why Amara need first blade?blade has power only when the Mark was in game,now Mark are broken, Amara are free so blade are uselles bone now. And what you mean-"do you think she's strong enough to fight off the effects" what effect man?she was that effect what corrupt ever1 who use blade.... and why Amara need any weapon? she is like God,just abit evil(maybe,still we dont know why God with all archangels seal Amara 18:46, November 9, 2015 (UTC)ess
But Amara is the source of the Mark's power. Which is the source of the blades power. So she's definitely able to use it, but I don't see why she would.